#70: Katie and Barb Kocher: The Importance of Grace and Understanding

WEBVTT

00:00:02.580 --> 00:01:00.600
Welcome back to the unbreakable boundaries podcast with your host, myself, Jennifer Maneely, and this is going to be a really fun episode for me. I actually have my friend Katie Coker on and her mom, Barb Coker. Look, I said that right and and I'm just really excited, because it's another one of those opportunities that we get to have some insights from a mother and a daughter and what some of their experiences were, while you have a parent that is dealing with a child that is in active addiction, and what does that look like for them? So I'm always really excited to get to hear some of these types of stories, because I think it's really important for us to start feeling not alone, to start really kind of getting some of that education going on in terms of that people, this is what people experience, and this is what they go through. And I think we need to talk about it.

00:00:56.920 --> 00:01:03.899
So this is, this is what I'm going to start with. Is I'm going to start with Katie. Hi.

00:01:03.899 --> 00:01:37.159
Katie, hi. And I think I would love to kind of hear from each of you, like, what were some of your experiences in terms of growing up? And I know this is a big question, and we don't have like, you know, all day to talk about it, but just kind of your experience of what it was growing up like in your household, and what were some of the things that maybe you struggled with even before some of the drugs came into the picture.

00:01:38.719 --> 00:01:43.900
So I feel like this would be interesting for my mom to speak on, but

00:01:44.560 --> 00:01:53.260
she will okay, like, as a as a child, child, yeah, before drugs came to the picture. Like, I

00:01:53.260 --> 00:02:25.520
just have memories of, like, very I think I have kind of limited memories, but I do remember things like hiding in the laundry basket, like waiting for somebody to come look for me, and nobody ever came and looked for me, or things like, if we didn't, because there was five kids, right? And if we didn't go to the restaurant that I wanted to go to, then I would not speak and not order.

00:02:29.240 --> 00:02:38.240
When you were hiding in the laundry basket and nobody came to look for you. What like? How did you perceive that in your little kid brain? And that's

00:02:38.240 --> 00:03:22.159
the interesting part. Is I don't remember going very deep with it. I just remember getting bored and leaving laundry basket. But I remember, like, feeling, I remember we were at the old house, so it would have been before I was eight, like the way that the living room was sort of like adjacent to the kitchen. And I remember, like, laying on that couch while I while everyone was like, in the kitchen, around the table, like, laughing and talking, having a good time, and I felt like, really negative and like, apart from, yeah, just like I didn't belong, or like I was lonely, or, yeah, I mean,

00:03:22.159 --> 00:03:27.439
and this, and this was in a house where you had four other siblings.

00:03:27.558 --> 00:03:33.739
I think at that point there would have been three, okay, two, two or three other siblings

00:03:34.639 --> 00:03:47.199
and and obviously, like your your mom and your dad, so it's kind of a house full, right, people, and yet you still kind of were feeling very a part of and kind of along, is that yeah,

00:03:47.259 --> 00:03:49.180
apart from Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:03:49.479 --> 00:04:06.120
And so Barbara Barb, I'll ask the same question, is in your in your perspective, what was it like at that time, like when Katie was growing up, and what was going on with you, and how did you see her?

00:04:07.979 --> 00:06:00.278
So things were very busy, particularly at the early time that Katie addressed there. We did have the four kids at that particular house, and you know, not long after the fifth one joined my husband and I both worked full time, both in pretty demanding jobs. At that time, we made such great effort in my guide post, however faulty at the time was to do better than my parents did. No offense mom and dad, but Katie has recalled, you know, one of my wounds growing up is that mom, I had six siblings, and mom and dad never attended anything that I did on my own, so we like plays or swim meets or that type of thing, so we did a lot of family time. We were having dinners together every night, to include Katie. We went on family vacations. We camped a lot back then. We made everybody go to church with us on the weekends, at least until, you know, after they turned 16, or some arbitrary number that you know, I had picked. And I think in part because of the chaos of having so many people in the house, and in part because it was the way I was raised, we followed a very formulaic way to be in the house. And honestly, I'm gonna, I'm gonna start crying, um, as Katie recalls feeling apart from the family, I did not realize that at the time, if she secluded herself in the living room or felt left out in that way, it I was following a plan. You know, I don't think we were harsh disciplinarians.

00:06:00.278 --> 00:06:32.238
We didn't use a belt or anything like that. We did spank that, you know, at that time again, 30 years ago or so, and you were told to do something. You were expected to do it, and, you know, on and on it, just in that way. It was just the way things were. And I'm not happy that Katie struggled what I am absolutely so touched by is what I have learned and developed through her process recovery.

00:06:28.459 --> 00:06:35.418
I'm very, very grateful for the depth that I have found in that process.

00:06:35.839 --> 00:06:43.420
I like the funny stories about like, when you first heard me laugh,

00:06:44.199 --> 00:06:53.620
oh, well, that wasn't the question I was asked, but it does go to personality. So it is true. It does go to personality.

00:06:53.920 --> 00:07:57.759
Katie was as a newborn, so she's number two. Number two, the first one was very easy, going very, you know, we thought we were the best parents ever. And then along came Katie, just 14 months later, who didn't sleep through the night, who was, you know, very unhappy, very demanding, very trying, all of those things. And what the story that Katie is recalling is that she was probably about six weeks old, and I was just literally at wit's end. I could not comfort her. I couldn't get anything, so I had her above my head and didn't shake her. But you know, I'm like, What do you want from me? She laughed, literally she laughed. And that is the that is the first time she does recall the story correctly, and I should have had the forethought at that time. Oh, boy, are we in for a ride here? And I did, you know, I was just so overjoyed that I got a happy emotion from her that I didn't even think about what that meant about her personality. But yes, in retrospect, that was a clue that I missed

00:07:58.540 --> 00:08:28.339
so basic Well, first of all, I commend you for continuing to have the kids, because my mom, my mom, stopped after one, and she was like, I just don't think we can do this again. So, you know, kudos for you. But I think it's, it's, I mean, obviously we can look at hindsight. But is that kind of just for clarity sake, are you saying that you're going, I was so frustrated and angry, and was like, What do you want for me?

00:08:28.339 --> 00:08:38.179
And that's when she started laughing. And that's kind of just how it has always been, where it's like people get frustrated, and she just sits back and laughs. That sounds about right, that tracks,

00:08:42.918 --> 00:08:45.938
oh. Taylor says, Yeah, I don't mean to be that way.

00:08:46.240 --> 00:09:28.100
Yeah. I think that she's not afraid of big emotions, actually, at least now. I mean, I wonder if that was the case then and then, just the way we raised because part of our German and you know, heritage is to repress all of that, and you just do what you got to do, and you ignore bad feelings. And I think Katie, my perception, now, obviously, she can speak for herself, is that she was experiencing, she didn't get that part of the genetics, and so repressing those big feelings, I clearly, I think, harmed her. And I just, you know, since I wasn't acknowledging big feelings at the time, I could hardly notice them in my young daughter at the time,

00:09:28.159 --> 00:11:12.720
I think looking back on that situation with sort of the information that I have now, just about ADHD and sensory seeking. You know, we think of sensory seeking. I worked with kids in the facility after getting clean. And we think of sensory seeking as, oh, they want to put their hands in sand and feel that. But it can also be wanting to spin around and run around or and so Possibly, yeah, seeking, yeah, yeah, that just the sensation of being up there and seeing, you know, I don't know, but you know, the air. Plain thing that's also a sensory experience for kids, and that's why they enjoy it. So, yeah, I don't know, but I do hear, and you know, a lot of people's recovery stories, oh, they knew when they were they were an addict at such and such point. You know, I don't remember struggling with with food or sneaking treats or being anything like that. But I do think just the part of you know, I would say mental illness. But mom, you and dad always said that my perception was skewed, and I think that's probably a accurate read on, you know, the feelings that I was feeling as a child just kind of really negative, and apart from and the like attempts at connecting and love, like weren't quite hitting, so it was like I wasn't receiving what you guys were, you know, attempting to our formula. Yeah, yeah, when prescribing

00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:15.360
to the this is what you do.

00:11:12.720 --> 00:11:23.600
This is how you live. This is, and I grew up in a very kind of similar way, where my mom was like, This is how you behave.

00:11:19.080 --> 00:11:27.559
These. This is like when you go to school. This. This is our prescription of life.

00:11:27.678 --> 00:11:34.999
Oh, I remember another example, perfect example of like with the church on the weekends.

00:11:30.859 --> 00:11:57.339
I always had bloody knees, because those damn tights, you would bloody your knee, and then you would have to wear tights on the weekend, and your scab then when you go to pee, you have to pull your tights down. You pull your scab off, and I feel like I still have scars from but I don't remember complaining about having to wear tights, but I do remember, you know, being in the stall at the show knees or whatever, just like, goodness gracious, you know, just

00:11:57.340 --> 00:12:02.460
to clarify for listeners, those work bloody knees that either the church or your parents imposed,

00:12:02.519 --> 00:12:04.080
I think the bike, I just

00:12:05.820 --> 00:12:07.139
wanted to make sure,

00:12:08.399 --> 00:12:11.759
yeah, from like having to kneel on rice or something, yeah? No,

00:12:11.940 --> 00:12:16.799
no, just your, your active lifestyle, right? Yeah,

00:12:16.799 --> 00:12:24.320
I remember climbing trees, yeah, riding bike. I think all three of us were outside a lot. Katie

00:12:24.318 --> 00:12:30.198
was a star soccer player.

00:12:24.318 --> 00:12:53.259
She ran a record breaking Was it an 800 in middle school on a stress fractured Shin that we didn't know about until she had been complaining that her leg hurt, but wanted to run the championship race there, and she did and won it. And then we had the X ray, and she had a stress fracture, yeah, so, I mean, she is, yeah, she was in. Is just a phenomenal, phenomenal. But there was

00:12:53.259 --> 00:12:57.700
that thing in first grade. See, I'm going to bring up all the stories. There was that thing in what

00:12:57.698 --> 00:14:13.619
was the first day, Miss neason was her name, and we had a great deal of difficulty with back talk from Katie, which, again, didn't fit the formula, right, no matter, but it acts, yeah, yeah, no matter what was said or imposed. And this, too is a clue. It struck me, and I've carried it with me, but I didn't understand. It would have been enough, actually, had I been attuned to, you know, the things now that that I have a better understanding of. But at the conclusion of the parent teacher conference at which Katie was not present, I said, and of course, everything was very complimentary. Katie was an excellent student and did everything she's supposed to at school she's not at home. But I said, Miss neason, I would like to ask a question, do you have difficulty with back talk from Katie in school? And Miss neason paused and then said, Katie has a very strong inner sense of justice and that, oh, now, Jen, you're nodding Absolutely.

00:14:09.359 --> 00:14:33.438
That's by Katie right in that is for everything that I was calling back talk. I do think it's motivated from that really deep within with her seeking and searching for justice, for for all at the time, it didn't solve my problems at the dinner table, and again, I stored that away, but,

00:14:34.879 --> 00:16:00.539
but this is an interesting little insight about how just one little change in perspective can kind of alter your view on the person that's like, right in front of you, right where you're like, Oh, that makes a little bit more sense. And I, you know, like, because I haven't obviously known Katie for as long as you have, but I will say that she. She will defend her friends and the people that she cares about, like tooth. And if she sees something that's just, she feels like it's just not right. That's where I see when she gets that, like fire, and she starts just absolutely, she's like, I gotta make this right. And sometimes that can come off a little aggressive, but it's from, like, the best place in her heart, right? So some of those, like, just that little bit of change in perspective can, can really change the way that we see a person, right? And, and I want to kind of fast forward a little bit here and go into and ask Katie, so obviously there eventually drugs started to become into the picture. When would you say that you had your first maybe inclination that there was an issue?

00:16:01.740 --> 00:17:29.180
So I actually okay. So let's just say this okay in fifth grade, I remember a little boy down the street. He approached me and was like, Hey, I talked to a girl who went to your school, and I asked her who is popular? And she said, You were and I like that has burned in my brain, because I think all of a sudden I became aware that I was being perceived and that there was something called Popular that I needed to know about and needed to concern myself with. Then I remember entering middle school where, like, clothing changed all of a sudden we were, like, shopping at limited too, and I had been a tomboy, and so was just really struggling with like, I feel like all of a sudden, I don't know I had to be, I had to dress different or something, and but drinking was cool. I feel like, among my friends now, looking back, I realized I had some friends who had some really deep seated issues at home with they were like, doing the self harm and but being their friends like I didn't understand what was going on. And, yeah, I think at that point, I thought we were just like, exploring and having fun, and didn't realize that it was something that I was going to have a problem with, right?

00:17:29.240 --> 00:17:46.119
Well, and that's and that's kind of why I like to ask that question of, like, when is the first time you notice there's a problem? Because there's, like, a difference between, like, the normal like, what kind of normal kids go through, they're like, drinking, they're experimenting.

00:17:41.920 --> 00:18:06.119
And I think by and large, like 80% of the population experiences that, right where it's like, I'm just, I'm just in my young thing, like, days, and I'm discovering alcohol, or I'm discovering some other things, and then it's like, at some point, though, it turns right, I

00:18:06.119 --> 00:19:13.619
don't think it turned for me personally, until way later, yeah, but I was blacking out, you know, I was doing things were happening that, you know, the Yeah, like, getting lesson and things and but that was like, I didn't even understand those things as I understand them today. So I It wasn't until, like, I mean, I really don't think I recognize the memory that I have in my brain is just of me when I was in high school years later, being when I decided, when I found a more reliable connection for OC 80s and like, sort of was, like laying in my bed being like, I don't know if I should do this every day, but it makes me feel better. I'm going to kind of thing and like taking that road, and that's at the point that I remember making a choice to, you see, I'm saying, right? That's the and that was years later, you know,

00:19:14.339 --> 00:19:41.200
and so that was kind of the point. And I guess, you know, follow up question, because you said you there were a lot of times in which, like, you were blacking out and things were happening to you in these, these blackouts. So in your mind, though, how, like, what was going on in your mind in those instances to kind of, like, kind of shrug that off and make that like a normalized thing for you.

00:19:38.599 --> 00:19:41.200
Well, that

00:19:41.200 --> 00:19:46.299
was still in middle school, so there was not this understanding. That's what I thought dream was,

00:19:47.559 --> 00:19:59.200
right? So you were just like, so this is just what happens when you drink, yeah, yeah, right, yeah. Totally normal in middle school, right, right? Because, like, that's what everybody in middle school is doing.

00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:01.559
Well, in my mind.

00:19:59.200 --> 00:20:04.500
Everybody. I mean, it was my friends, and even of my friends.

00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:07.680
I wonder how many were actually blacking out, but to me, that was my experience. So, oh, that

00:20:07.680 --> 00:20:10.500
like, that's what everybody's doing, yeah, yeah.

00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:27.740
And so Barb, you know, now you're hearing this, right? And I don't know what you guys have talked about and what you guys have not, um, but she's in middle school. What's your perspective on what was happening in her world at that time? So

00:20:27.799 --> 00:20:40.900
just for the record, that was new information for me. But moving on from there, the Katie continued to be an excellent student. We

00:20:44.259 --> 00:20:45.519
battle the books.

00:20:45.579 --> 00:22:30.140
Battle the books. Yeah, all of that soccer track, all that I've said before, two things she was, in many respects, very mature. Continued with the theme of that strong inner sense of justice, which caused difficulty with teaching staff, both in the middle school and high school levels, for sure, and it was note to me. I don't remember what class it was or who the teacher was, but she came home from middle school having gotten out of one of her assigned classes and put in a different one. Do you remember that Kate and anyway, they'd never contacted me. Katie did this all on her own, which my internal response was, how can the middle school do this? You know, the second thing that so all of that was happening, then the second story is that for the first time, and Katie's going to laugh here, maybe, but Katie didn't, I don't know, she got her first grade card with maybe 2b on it, or something like that. I don't even remember now what the problem was, I was very concerned because of what we had seen that was different. Now I do remember one. I realized that drinking, because we had found empty evidence of drinking, I don't know if it was cans or a bottle of wine or something in our bonus room upstairs, so I knew that, okay, we're, we're in that era, you know. So with that, what I viewed as a decline in her grades, I came up with a contract that she had to sign. I still write, still in the house.

00:22:30.140 --> 00:23:16.440
I still run into it occasionally that it wasn't you know her, it was her promise that this was not an indication of her losing interest in her schoolwork, and she was going to reapply herself and all this other kind of stuff, you know. So what I am also now aware consistent with Katie's own awareness about brand names and things like that, which we've never been I mean, she described herself as a tomboy. I call us the Beverly Hillbillies. We live in a fairly, you know, a suburban area, and we've got a tractor in the backyard, which, you know, don't tell anybody it's not supposed to be there, and it just, you can't get a car in our garage and that kind of stuff.

00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:23.359
So, no, we didn't, we didn't do much by brand names. I remember one Christmas she wanted a pair of is it seven?

00:23:24.200 --> 00:23:27.140
Sevens for all being kind? There you go, jeans

00:23:27.140 --> 00:23:33.500
for Christmas. And she wanted them so bad. That's not our Christmas budget, you know?

00:23:30.859 --> 00:24:21.259
So that is what she got. Was that one pair of jeans for Christmas. But I saw at the time this was going on, then I saw that increased awareness, and in fairness, part of our formula was, what will the neighbors think? That is how we were raised, and it didn't have that effect on me as a child, because our neighbors didn't have brand names. But I can see now, in retrospect, if our speech and actions are act right when you're in public, because you got to be careful what the neighbors what the neighbors think. How that could on a developing child turn into I got addressed the right way. I got to and her comrades were of higher financial you know, it just was a school group,

00:24:24.200 --> 00:24:27.259
did you cut out or no,

00:24:27.259 --> 00:24:29.539
just for a second. Okay, it's okay.

00:24:29.900 --> 00:24:50.259
So that message is not to me, okay. So it's all interesting the way it all comes together. Because I we were seeing that this was, you know, developing, I guess. And it was sometime, maybe within the next two years of there Katie, that we started seeking counseling.

00:24:51.460 --> 00:25:01.140
So my real quick, just on the brand is yes, when we moved to the fancy neighborhood, I call it, I remember being on the bus, and it was they made fun of me for not. Having brand shoes.

00:25:01.140 --> 00:25:11.039
And I was like, What is a brand name? Like, I didn't even know what that meant. I didn't know generic and brand name. I think I was in like, third grade when we moved but um, and I wasn't.

00:25:11.039 --> 00:25:24.140
We were very and then, like, yeah, I guess I didn't realize that boys bully you when they like you. So I thought, like, everyone hated me, but, um, yes.

00:25:17.700 --> 00:25:59.859
So I think I believe it was the summer of after eighth grade when you found beer cans under my bed and I was sent to counseling. So it would have been like right before high school, yeah, and then I think the perfectionism started cropping up around that time, just with, like, cross country and, you know, like, or the pressure, because I remember, you know, we talk about Dad, whenever dad would be like, how was your run? And I'd be like, you know, stop pressuring me.

00:25:56.140 --> 00:26:13.680
Because I thought, if whatever I would tell him wouldn't be good enough, like I if I told him, Oh, I, you know, I only ran to kill her farm or whatever, which is, I don't know how far that is, but in my brain, he wasn't gonna think that was far enough.

00:26:15.119 --> 00:26:29.900
So Barb, you found these NC beer cans. She's in eighth grade, right before summer of eighth grade, right before getting into high school, right and you found these empty beer cans. What went through your mind when you found the beer cans?

00:26:32.059 --> 00:26:44.740
Oh, the initial reaction again, going to my formula was, how disrespectful, honestly, that's the first How dare that happened in my house,

00:26:44.799 --> 00:26:47.559
because that's my immediate response to things.

00:26:48.519 --> 00:27:17.099
Because, you know, we were so afraid of our parents, and they weren't, you know, by all, we weren't beaten to a, you know, an inappropriate degree either, but that, was the relationship, and that was my both Kate's dad, and my initial response was, how disrespectful, you know, and so that's where the punishment thought comes in.

00:27:12.000 --> 00:28:04.740
Now, before we reacted to Katie in that way, we talked about it, thought about it. We assumed it was exploration. I had no idea that Katie had started drinking so much earlier. And, you know, was drinking to blackouts even prior to that time. We were aware that kids were going through open garages and taking alcohol out of other neighbors open garages at the time, and she had a particular friend. I that perhaps when I questioned Katie and her older sister, by the way, this was we didn't know this to be Katie. You gotta remember, we've got the other kids in the house too, and when I questioned them, I think this friend's name came up. So as as the perpetrator who had brought the alcohol in from having stolen from a neighbor's garage.

00:28:00.720 --> 00:28:31.279
And I don't remember what agreement we reached, but we actually sat down, included that friend in our discussion with Kelly and Katie, and we thought we were being very progressive at the time, and dealt with it as they were exploring something. We didn't care for it. We didn't care for it happening in our house, there likely was some type of goodness. It's been so long since I've punished somebody.

00:28:27.740 --> 00:28:33.740
What? When you're put on restriction, what is that?

00:28:31.279 --> 00:28:33.740
Grounding? Grounding?

00:28:33.740 --> 00:28:33.980
Yeah,

00:28:33.980 --> 00:28:42.819
we likely grounded. But I still I didn't have any notice toward a problem at that point?

00:28:41.259 --> 00:28:42.819
Yeah,

00:28:43.119 --> 00:28:49.119
of course, of course. Not one. She's an eighth grade she's a great student, right? She's got all of these other things correct.

00:28:49.480 --> 00:28:51.099
She signed the contract mark, she's

00:28:51.099 --> 00:28:53.799
and she stopped the contract.

00:28:54.160 --> 00:28:57.460
I mean, who could ever go against the contract? Exactly

00:28:58.180 --> 00:28:59.140
right. So I'm

00:28:59.140 --> 00:29:39.859
going to, I'm going to fast forward, at least for especially for time's sake, in getting into when the problem started becoming a problem. And you had kind of hinted at Katie when you were a few years later, you started noticing that there was a problem from the time that you were kind of like, I noticed that there's, like, maybe a little bit of an issue here, but it makes me feel good, so I'm gonna keep doing it anyway. So the point in which you got were kind of way further down the road. Well, how long was that

00:29:40.099 --> 00:29:46.299
I well, I got kicked off the cross country team for drinking during practice. I was a varsity cross country runner.

00:29:46.299 --> 00:30:02.339
I can't remember if I was all American, but I know like people, my running mate definitely was, and that's who I kept up with at races. And I.

00:29:54.759 --> 00:30:46.240
Yeah, I got and again, and looking back, it's kind of funny, because I've always blamed the girl. We had gotten alcohol for the weekend through our older friends, and it was at her house, and she lived right near the school, and so we ran over there and just took one shot, and she came back and tried to snatch it drunk, and ended up, we ended up getting kicked off the team, but yeah, so I think I started getting in trouble. So that happened. And then the SOC, the travel soccer team that I was on, they heard about it, and they wanted, there was, they wanted to kick me off the team too, or set me on the bench or something. And then, and then I totaled my car.

00:30:39.019 --> 00:30:46.960
Things started happening pretty quickly.

00:30:48.160 --> 00:31:06.539
So things went downhill pretty fast at some point and Barb, when things kind of started going downhill, what was your first like moment where you could see things going a little not according to your plan.

00:31:03.779 --> 00:31:08.759
You're like, okay, maybe there's a little bit more of an issue here. I

00:31:08.759 --> 00:32:33.859
don't remember probably the first time, what my first memory though, is that things were, although I can't define it anymore, specifically the relationship had degraded. We I was uncertain as to what Katie was doing the and I have some exposure to the topic outside of my family, and I was a growing sense of this cannot be good, right? And we didn't talk she she did not share counseling, by the way, did not go well. We tried different counsel. You know, it, it. Things were a mess. And I knew that much. One morning before it was still dark, before my alarm went off, Katie got into bed with her dad, and I got in on my side of the bed, and my eyes opened, she never said a word, and that I knew something was up. Both something is wrong, and Oh dear God, she still comes to me. I mean, so even though she couldn't articulate it, that gave me hope that, I mean, I had no clue the measure of what we were dealing with, and in fact, about so my alarm went off, she got up and left. Phone rang about 11 o'clock that morning.

00:32:33.859 --> 00:32:58.660
It was the president or the principal at the high school saying that he hoped Katie had told me why he was calling, and I because she'd gotten into bed with me that morning, I was able to say, with all honesty, I'm aware there's an issue. Because, you know, that was the beginning. That would be my bookmark of where things began.

00:32:54.099 --> 00:33:34.940
I was out of town when she totaled the car, and by that point in time when her dad called and said, Katie's been in a wreck. I'm going there now, he called me back after the fact, still from the scene, and said, I think Katie's got a head injury. I'm going to take her to the emergency room. And I said, What do you mean? You think she's got a head injury? And he said, Well, she keeps falling asleep. I said, Kevin, you need to go get a drug test now and test her, because that's not, that's not what hit it, you know, with everything else I had, this is, she needs to be tested. And he said, I can't test my own daughter. I'm, you know, it was a foreign Oh, yeah.

00:33:30.619 --> 00:33:56.799
And he did not, so I had a lecture to give the next morning at eight. He did take you to the emergency room. I am so grateful that they Well, I don't know, you know, it goes both ways. I was glad at the time that they did not test you there, because it kept it in house. You know, I gave my lecture first thing in the morning, hit the road, stopped CVS on my way, bought a test, and it was positive when I got home. So and however,

00:33:56.920 --> 00:33:59.920
it was positive for benzos.

00:34:00.460 --> 00:34:03.960
It was positive for a few things. I think, yeah, benzo

00:34:03.960 --> 00:34:15.239
is what comes to mind. But yeah, I that was just the beginning of what came to be, 15 years.

00:34:16.739 --> 00:34:38.838
So we have 15 we have 15 years and of probably some chaos. So I'll just ask Katie, in that time period of the that 15 years from that point on, what was like. One of the things that stuck out to you the most,

00:34:42.199 --> 00:34:45.639
that I had to get good grades and do my school,

00:34:46.360 --> 00:34:54.639
yeah, well, so let's, let's go into like, maybe your mid, I would say maybe your mid 20s.

00:34:51.460 --> 00:34:55.840
Now we're gonna fast forward a little bit and go, Okay,

00:34:55.840 --> 00:35:27.860
so, and by my mid 20s, I had gotten my college degree. I had double major. Hard, and I was in and I was trying to navigate what comes next. I was struggling to keep a job, but, I mean, I I was checking myself on outward success, right? So when I became a paralegal and was doing that, and got into law school, got a scholarship, like I thought I was doing okay, right?

00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:28.940
While using,

00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:58.960
while using, which is always just really impressive one for me, because that was not I always had an external thing for myself where, like, I was just a failure, because I failed at everything, but usually by choice, because I didn't want to try to succeed, so you couldn't, you couldn't hide as well, in my shoes. But I always think it's really impressive when someone can externally be so successful.

00:35:51.519 --> 00:36:01.440
And you say that externally successful, but what was going on internally for you?

00:36:02.519 --> 00:36:22.219
Um, I mean, I think I probably tried my best to not be aware, which is, yeah, I think, I think I, you know, looking back, it's like I had gone to counseling and they gave me meds and they didn't work. And so I found my own solution,

00:36:22.820 --> 00:36:35.300
right? So you're, you are kind of just like things, things are really good. When would you say later on in life? Did things start turning again and get really bad?

00:36:35.539 --> 00:36:39.260
Well, I think they were always kind of teetering, right?

00:36:39.260 --> 00:38:21.860
It was like always one crisis to the next. But I thought if I just kept, like, the the school, or whatever in order, then things would would pan out, um, but yeah, then in, you know, close to my last year in law school, or maybe it was exam time ish, and of my second year of law school, and I had gotten in trouble for plagiarism, just where I had turned in a rough draft of something that was so rough, like there weren't correct citations because I hadn't been able To put the time into it. And so that started. So basically, I got in trouble, and that sort of started. There was, like this big conversation with it was, I had to go in front of a panel and and was forced to take a semester off, but I didn't, I wasn't able to recognize, I wasn't ready to quit, basically. And so things just kept getting worse, until I had that moment of, yeah, I think, because I think I had always, I had always said that I would rather die than go to rehab. And I don't know, I guess I thought of it as quitting, and I didn't want to be a quitter, so to speak. I mean, people in recovery are familiar with that sort of mindset. But then, like, one day, I had a change of heart and was like, oh, like, rehab isn't where you get punished and sent to like, it's where you can go if you want to change your life and get some tools. And I had just finally arrived at that place,

00:38:22.460 --> 00:38:43.780
right? And Barb, so she's externally, she's doing well in school and stuff. And when did you notice that there was, like, a deeper issue going on? Were there like signs? Did you know something was going on? But maybe you didn't know what you were looking at. What was that like for you?

00:38:44.320 --> 00:39:05.280
So it depends. So Katie used, and we were aware of consistent use, although she did several times try other modalities than illegal drugs, you know, prescribed by the doctors and that type of thing.

00:39:01.199 --> 00:40:17.820
But as she noted, it was from crisis to crises. So educationally, she did fantastic again. You know, everything was great, but at the same time, money was always an issue. That is to say, she would ask for money that we I wouldn't question it the first time, but then by the time we're to the sixth request in 45 days, or that kind of thing. So that was always outstanding. You know, in was an area of discomfort. The calls I would get, I still I, you know, little, small trigger for me is if my phone rings after at 930 at night, because there was a time in the air when that person would always be Katie and in an unhealthy frame of mind, I mean literally, either ranting about something that her partner the times. Said or failed to do or, you know, it was that was very stressful for me. I'm not at all comparing to the stress that she herself was going through, but that's just my little experience.

00:40:10.199 --> 00:41:15.539
Ultimately, the we had stopped all monetary assistance, but for an apartment that we got her in the hopes that she would be able to finish law school, still not understanding, you know, we went back to a contract. She had a contract. She was going to go do all these things, and when that lease ended, Dad literally went, moved her out of that apartment, as we had told her for a year would happen. He called me on the way back from that area, literally, ball. I mean, he was torn up. It was the hardest thing in his work that he'd ever had to do, and we didn't know what was going to happen. Katie called, literally within 30 days, right at the 30 day mark, and asked for help. And we had tried to force help on when we found it, when she wrecked that car, we took her into an IOP outpatient program, you know, and

00:41:17.219 --> 00:41:19.139
they didn't test for fentanyl back then.

00:41:21.539 --> 00:41:26.840
Well, back then, fentanyl wasn't hugely on the market, yeah, I

00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:29.960
had access to it. Yeah.

00:41:26.840 --> 00:41:29.960
So,

00:41:30.800 --> 00:42:27.679
and then from there, the story, you know, has been all uphill, both in terms of the work that Katie has put in and the outcome. And I, I know we're getting short on time, and I just want to take the opportunity to say, here I'm going to start crying again. I could not be in this is not to put pressure on Katie. Do not misinterpret this as pressure for the rest of your life. I could not be more proud of Katie living authentically, truly, that person that had so long tried to get out and because of, you know, the formula we lived right? Um, she struggled with that. And I am full of joy every single day when I reflect on who Katie is and the life she is living now, it's just incredible to me. Absolutely incredible.

00:42:27.860 --> 00:42:28.159
Yeah,

00:42:28.579 --> 00:42:41.199
I'm glad you said that, and Katie, you called your mom and dad and asked for help, and you went into treatment, and what was that experience like for you when you went in there.

00:42:43.599 --> 00:43:33.199
So, so I was in Atlanta, right? And my mom came down and got me, and I just, I remember being excited, like, I think I remember being excited. I remember having these plans of starting a ukulele band all these things, right? But I, I do remember, and I liked the detox that I was sent to, and I was originally excited to go to, it was described as like, or I thought it was going to be like a hippie place, where I could take the ukulele, you know, and do art or whatever, but it ended up being a lot more strict than the detox that I was at. And actually, at the detox, I got in trouble several times, one for not wearing a bra, and somebody complained about being able to see my nipples. People are always complaining about me.

00:43:33.199 --> 00:45:00.239
Jen, one that I was singing too loud in the shower anyway, but I do remember, yeah, being a little thrown off by, you know, they took all my clothes. I wasn't allowed to wear shorts because they were too short. It was an all girls treatment center. I wasn't allowed to have sugar. I wasn't allowed to, you know, we were only I could call my parents once every two weeks, and the therapist would talk to us. I was like, this place is way too expensive. I can just go to meetings. I because I, in my heart, knew that I was done and and, yeah, I was I, I was convinced that I just needed to get a sponsor. They wouldn't allow me to get a sponsor. And so I do. The biggest issue that I remember having at the treatment center was that it cost too much and that I didn't go to enough meetings, and I couldn't get a sponsor. What do you remember mom? Oh, and they wouldn't let me do my law school stuff, so I ended up having to because originally, the treatment center that I was going to go to was one that would let me finish out, but, I mean, maybe that was good. I really had time to focus on myself get a therapist that I actually was honest with and could talk to. And, yeah, I think that was maybe the first time that I was really still enough to be like, what might be going on with Katie, you know?

00:44:55.960 --> 00:45:28.400
And I did. We did end up. Doing some art therapy there, where I really got in touch with my creativity, which I continued after getting out of treatment to this day. So yeah, there, there was a lot of good things that that came out of that treatment center. But, you know, as per my MO like, I definitely thought I had a plan, and thought that I knew what was best.

00:45:29.780 --> 00:45:36.860
Well, of course, and so, you know, Barb, what was your experience with her going through that treatment?

00:45:39.920 --> 00:47:01.980
I don't remember. Isn't that funny? That's the most recent end of it. I am stuck on just the things we've talked about here in this gathering this afternoon, on the fact that going back to the principal, calling me in and sitting down with him, I can hear myself telling him he, uh, she was suspended there in high school for drinking during the cross country practice for 10 days. I think it was, it was a pretty long suspension. And I pointed out to him at the time that my perception of Katie is this would not bother her in the least. This would be a notch in her belt. And in hearing Kate, I do think that that's true. I you know, it was something to hold up. She was proud of it, I think, in some respect. But in listening to Katie tell her story today, I would encourage those involved with youth to take that second breath and consider whether, for someone struggling, whether kicking them off their outlet, the cross country team, the soccer team, the all again, it is the way I was raised. Those were all rewards for doing what's right.

00:46:57.340 --> 00:47:52.360
But I think when we're talking about the the mental health and strength of individuals, that to completely remove their place of affirmation had to have itself had a significant impact on Katie and, I presume, others as well. So that's, that's kind of where my mind was, but obviously we're very, very thankful, I mean, beyond words, right? That that Katie had the strength to get through it, that the timing finally worked, that she did find out and make relationship with a counselor that had made great inroads and assisted Katie. But I do not pretend that it is not a substantial part due to Katie's own strength. Yeah,

00:47:52.719 --> 00:48:17.099
absolutely, Oh, absolutely, because it comes from us. And one of my follow up questions to that is because you talked about, you know, going in and out of counseling at a younger time, and it not going well. So Katie, you finally found this counselor that made an impact on your life that really helped you. What was the difference between this counselor versus all the other times that you had tried to

00:48:17.099 --> 00:48:22.099
Well, I think she was probably she was the most expensive one that I'd ever had.

00:48:20.420 --> 00:48:22.099
I think,

00:48:23.179 --> 00:48:25.760
okay, but mine is the money, no. Well, it's

00:48:25.760 --> 00:48:30.980
just funny, right? But mom, you always have said that I have expensive taste.

00:48:32.000 --> 00:48:36.619
Yep. So, so, okay, so we could look for the expensive counselors. Okay, well,

00:48:36.679 --> 00:49:10.860
well, obviously I was ready to talk to somebody, I reckon, you know, I was in and, yeah, I don't know what the reasoning was, but I did. I respected her, you know. And, yeah, I don't know why I if it was just that I was a kid back then, and I just didn't feel like they could ever possibly understand what I was going through. But yeah, I don't know Well, I

00:49:10.860 --> 00:50:01.440
think he's right, and I think you said something really important was that you were ready to talk to someone, yeah, and it just so happened that you found someone in that space that you connected and respected in that time to be able to talk to them, right? Yeah, so, but at the end of the day, it was you were ready, yeah. And so, you know, fast forward a little bit, you get out of rehab, and you start going and trying to figure out how to live this, this new way of of living right, trying to figure out how to be clean, sober, whatever you want to call it, and what has in the last because I'm going to just go ahead and tell for the audience.

00:49:58.179 --> 00:50:04.380
For for time's sake, you have five years, yeah, which is huge.

00:50:04.559 --> 00:50:07.679
Thank you. Amazing. It's incredible. It is

00:50:07.679 --> 00:50:36.079
incredible. And just a little side note, just because I feel like your five years has not been very smooth, selling has not been smooth selling. And we don't have to go into too many details, uh, but I'll just give you an example. Your your five year celebration came on October 8/10,

00:50:37.460 --> 00:50:43.420
well, it was scheduled to be on the second or something, right after hurricane. Oh, yeah.

00:50:41.739 --> 00:50:43.420
So

00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:44.679
this is what I'm okay.

00:50:43.420 --> 00:50:44.679
Thank

00:50:44.679 --> 00:50:47.500
you for the clean date was the day before the hurricane.

00:50:47.739 --> 00:51:17.880
So the your clean date was the day before Hurricane. Helene came in. So this tells you when we were recording this podcast is just towards the end of October. We're just now starting to get back, because we were supposed to have this podcast recorded like three weeks ago, but we had to postpone it due to Hurricane Helene and but I almost kind of feel like that's kind of how your recovery has gone.

00:51:18.239 --> 00:51:18.659
It's,

00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:26.780
I mean, you know, I in the beginning, there was some issues just with recovery houses and things, but, yeah, the

00:51:26.840 --> 00:51:29.300
singing too loud in the shower, that kind of thing,

00:51:29.300 --> 00:51:30.860
exactly. But

00:51:30.860 --> 00:51:40.900
she is a good singer, right? Can't give her too much stuff about that, right? They just didn't recognize the talent,

00:51:41.619 --> 00:52:20.659
right? I mean, you know, you can't force them, you know, anyway, everybody's got to come to their own conclusions. But, yeah, the I had, I don't know the PC terminology, I guess, but I ended up in a relationship where, you know, we were both in recovery. He relapsed and hit it. And I knew something was up, but I wasn't quite sure what it was. And we kept doing this back and forth thing. And now, you know, I guess we would call that sort of psychologically abusive.

00:52:16.019 --> 00:52:46.780
And I mean, you know, I'm obviously in recovery, and probably not the most healthy person to be in a relationship with anyway, but it ended up with, yeah, him kidnapping me a whole ordeal, yeah, and he's now in prison for six years, so and I don't have contact with him, and I don't think that he's slowing my life. So that's some growth, right? We got,

00:52:46.780 --> 00:52:50.500
we got some growth there.

00:52:46.780 --> 00:54:16.980
And, yeah, right. And the reason I kind of wanted to talk a little bit about recovery and it not always being smooth sailing, is because recovery, for a lot of people, it's not smooth sailing. There's a lot that happens. Life still shows up, right? And sometimes we're not always. We don't always have the tools or the skills we heal over time, but it doesn't happen from day one, right? We still have a lot that we carry with us into recovery. We have a lot of things wounds that we fix, because it goes so much beyond the drugs. And I think that for so many people out there they, you know, parents, family members, or other people that just don't know, they think that as soon as you put the drugs down, then your life is just supposed to go uphill, and everything's supposed to be really great. But it's like it goes this is so much beyond just the drugs, but because life is so can be so chaotic, even like when we're clean and we're healing and all of that stuff, I like to remind people that we can get through these things and remain clean on the After. I think it's incredible what you've been through in your recovery and actually stayed clean, because there's a whole lot people that have gone through a whole lot less that use that as an excuse, right?

00:54:10.920 --> 00:54:22.219
And you know, I'll be like, I'll talk to parents, because that's kind of what I do for a living.

00:54:22.280 --> 00:55:00.300
And they're like, well, we don't want to, like, rock the boat, or we don't want them to feel like they kind of still want to walk on eggshells where they're like, Oh, well, we're worried that, like, this person is going to make them use and I was like, listen, let me tell you something. It's up to us on whether or not we decide we can get through things, and we have to learn how to get through things, hard things, and and come out the other side clean, because it's this is, you know, we have to face our triggers. We can't walk on eggshells. We have to learn how to live our lives.

00:54:55.420 --> 00:55:12.780
And life shows up so bar. I want to kind of throw that to you, is you've seen Katie go through some things during her recovery that she has stayed clean through. But what's been your experience watching her go through tough things

00:55:12.900 --> 00:55:28.760
that and then tying also back to something else you said when Katie first finished recovery, I will be very honest I expected when I did what? When you finished rehab, rehab, rehab. Sorry,

00:55:30.079 --> 00:55:31.400
you're done with recovery.

00:55:31.820 --> 00:55:52.900
I'm sorry. I'm sorry. That was my ignorance, right? When she finished rehab, when she got out of rehab, I thought she would become the Katie that we had expected her to be, right, that that she would become more mainstream, that that whole formula thing that I'm talking about

00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:56.320
right, you guys room for a surprise. So

00:55:57.099 --> 00:56:14.039
after about the first year of recovery, and her language didn't change, and she got a number of tattoos that are, you know, visible here, even on this on particularly on her left hand, and those types of things.

00:56:10.079 --> 00:56:18.480
And I that my first thought was, okay, when? When is she going to be like me?

00:56:18.960 --> 00:56:25.280
She's going to fit into the mold that I feel like I wanted her to fit into when she dressed down that correct,

00:56:25.519 --> 00:56:36.679
right? And that is where I started this by saying so I go back to the beginning of this.

00:56:30.619 --> 00:57:26.960
That is when my depth grew, because she showed me she wasn't that mold, right? She She didn't fit in that mold. Was never a part of that mold. But mom, I am a terrific, wonderful person with great things, and as I said, I have learned so much in watching katie, as well as experiencing Katie, because she is an experiential thing to behold, that I am so glad that she stayed authentic, that she figured out or began expressing who she is, so that now I have a relationship with Katie as she wants to be, and I think is called to be and that has the enrichment is priceless. I mean, literally.

00:57:27.440 --> 00:58:08.400
You know, when I what I tell some people is, it's such an amazing thing to watch your kids grow up. It's an even better thing to watch your parents grow up. And I think I think through this, because I think my mom has had a very similar experience as well. If of going this helped her really get, I think, in touch with herself and start understanding maybe some of the belief systems that we have around the kids and what we think they should be When, when, you know, especially, like for someone that's like, I'm just me, and I'm just trying to figure out, and I just want to be me, right?

00:58:08.400 --> 00:58:37.039
And Katie's like, I just want to be me. So, you know, instead of her fitting into, you know, your mold, instead you got the best version of your daughter, which is just her, and that might, that may be the person that decides one day that she's just gonna, like, shave her head off, or, you know, like, cut off all her hair, or just add more interesting tattoos to her body.

00:58:37.039 --> 00:58:46.719
And you know, we love that. We love watching people grow into themselves and who they are really meant to be,

00:58:47.860 --> 00:58:55.119
or try to launch another business venture, right? Same time, right?

00:58:55.179 --> 00:59:09.119
I know okay, what, what I know and feel is that when I am with Katie now, just the, just even the vibe in the room is so much she has, I believe that she has accepted who she is, right?

00:59:09.119 --> 00:59:20.659
So the stress, where there used to be stress, feels so much different now. It just Yeah, it's it's palpable, yeah,

00:59:20.900 --> 00:59:42.039
yeah. And so this is one, I guess, my final question, one of my final questions, and I'll ask each of you separately. But for Katie, um, what would you say to maybe some of the parents or the family members that are out there listening to this right now, what would be like a piece of advice you would give them.

00:59:42.340 --> 00:59:42.699
Oh my

00:59:42.699 --> 00:59:50.139
gosh, that's so huge.

00:59:42.699 --> 01:00:43.659
Well, I mean, yeah, without knowing where some listeners might be coming from, I mean, what I wanted to say, and I know we're running on time, was just the cool things that me and my mom have. Gotten to do together since, I guess her wanting to be a part of my life as I am, like with us, with her coming to pride and doing the tent with me. Yeah, and you know what I mean, and I do think I probably did go to law school in an effort to understand her better, to want to be like her, you know. And so I just, yeah, appreciate being able to like, share with her in something where I'm allowed to be myself, I guess. And so I don't know what advice somebody can take from that, but the joy that I've experienced is,

01:00:44.440 --> 01:00:58.719
you know, right? Maybe something along the lines of, allow them to figure out who they are and and be a part of who they are, not who you right.

01:00:54.400 --> 01:00:58.719
Really want them to be right?

01:00:59.679 --> 01:01:13.079
Yeah, something like that. And so Barb, I'll ask the same question of you. So for the for my audience, for the families out there listening, what would be the biggest piece of advice you could give someone

01:01:16.619 --> 01:02:11.699
to give grace? Is the way I would word it, that a lot of perceptions on both my part and Katie's part were wrong. Katie commented earlier that her dad and I told her that her perceptions were wrong. But as you have said, Jen, perceptions are right there that person's reality, and I think that we had been so our perceptions are perceived by the mass to be correct more often than not. So that we came to believe we own the perception, if that makes sense, yes. And so my advice would be, number one, if someone has a different perception, that doesn't mean it's wrong, right?

01:02:08.280 --> 01:02:11.699
It's a different perception.

01:02:12.300 --> 01:03:01.679
Number two, if you're facing someone who has a different perception, give them grace with it. Don't cast judgment as a result of that. Don't, don't be, you know, writing them off, or assuming worst case scenario, assuming that they have and I think Katie may have experienced part of this, like, say, referencing her dad asking if she'd had a good run. And Katie believed that was pressure right, to try to get ahead of that, and don't presume that there's an ill intent or a controlling intent in whatever's happening, and to pause, maybe pause is the best thing. Pause and give grace to allow room for the other story to take root and grow, and then you've got a full tree to work with, and then it's awesome.

01:03:02.880 --> 01:03:45.400
Yeah, I, you know, I'll give you, I'll share with y'all, a little story that I have with my mom about that, that that type of perception. Because even in recovery with years clean, I still was really challenged when, like, I found myself, like I was working with my mom, and I was going through like, a really, really difficult, emotional time with her. I, like, a lot of stuff was coming up, a lot of resentments, a lot of anger. And this was with, like, over a decade clean at this time. And I remember there was this one day where she was, I was mad at her for something, and she just looked at me, and she's like, I believe in you.

01:03:38.840 --> 01:03:51.340
Oh, and I found that to be my perception at that time. It was so condescending. I remember I had a water bottle in my hand.

01:03:48.519 --> 01:05:17.760
It was like a metal water bottle, and I just chucked it in, like the side of the building, or whatever. I was so mad, and I ran away, and I was like in tears, all because I have my mom yelling at me, going, I believe in you. Because it was like, That pressure, right? I was like, you don't obviously, because, but it's, it's the perception, like, you know, someone says something, and this is where it's like, we get to kind of come together, and now that we're beyond that, right? We get to kind of sit and go and have the grace to understand each other's perceptions and be able to talk it through and be able to say, this is what I hear, or this is what I understand based on this, and that's how we have been able to heal and grow from our relationship, but, but the truth is, is there was nothing that she could have done at that time. Like I had to kind of go off on my own and go figure out, why was I perceiving it in that way, or why was I seeing that as pressure, or why was I like misunderstanding? I had to go figure that out, and then I could come back to her and. Be like, Okay, this is what's really going on. And so there's this conversation. And what I like to invite for for especially for family members that are in the same situation of what you guys, you know are going through, is have these conversations with one another.

01:05:18.000 --> 01:06:06.539
Be willing to, like, be open and vulnerable about the experiences and how you experience each other, and what's really going on, and how do you start navigating some of these challenging conversations about when you're a kid and you have your kid perception, and then, like, when you're a parent, right? Because it's like I had no idea what was happening with my mom, and what my mom was going through when I was a kid, and some of the decisions that she made when I perceived them in a certain way, what was going on because I was a kid, so I didn't have all of the information that the adults do, right? So now that we're adults, we get to sit and have some of those kinds of conversations.

01:06:03.179 --> 01:06:44.199
And then what I see, and I hear from you guys, is that y'all are embarking a lot on the that journey where, you know, Barb, you get to go and do something really fun, like go to the Pride festival with your daughter and learn all sorts of new things, which we won't go into now, you know, I get to learn, yeah, we get to see just a whole different side and just embrace it all. And I think it's magical. So is there anything else before we before we sign off, that you guys want to add to this conversation? Yeah, just that

01:06:44.199 --> 01:06:52.300
I'm so grateful, I guess, that yeah, that you guys didn't give up on me. Yeah,

01:06:53.619 --> 01:07:22.699
yeah. Barb, any last, final words, nope, nope, good. I think you said a lot, and I just really want to thank you guys both for being willing. It can be really challenging for me to find people that are willing to kind of come on and talk publicly about their experiences, because this is a really challenging topic, and it's a very vulnerable topic. So I really want to thank you guys for coming on and being so open and vulnerable today.

01:07:23.960 --> 01:07:31.099
So we do appreciate the opportunity. Yeah, each time I can learn more about Katie's perspective is a good time.

01:07:31.639 --> 01:07:56.679
Yeah, absolutely, absolutely. And thank you for listening to this podcast. If you want to listen to more or find more information out about this podcast and more of what I do to help families. You can go check out my page at unbreakable boundaries podcast.com it's full of other great podcasts, just like this, one and other great resources to look through, and please remember to share this podcast with others you never know who may need to hear this.

01:07:53.920 --> 01:08:08.460
People are often hiding their battles in this arena, and sharing is a great way to provide this valuable resource to a person you may not even know who needs it. And don't forget, there is always hope, even when things seem the most hopeless. Yeah.